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	<title>Comments on: The Curious Case of Steven Gray, Part Two</title>
	<atom:link href="http://larevblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/the-curious-case-of-steven-gray-part-two/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://larevblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/the-curious-case-of-steven-gray-part-two/</link>
	<description>A RETIRED GONZAGA BASKETBALL BLOG DEDICATED TO THE PROPOSITION THAT A MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE</description>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://larevblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/the-curious-case-of-steven-gray-part-two/#comment-1830</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 2010 12:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larevblog.wordpress.com/?p=2819#comment-1830</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What you&#039;ve described is entirely subjective (even and especially the &quot;CLASSIC pot-heat [sic]&quot;), which is the problem.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What you&#8217;ve described is entirely subjective (even and especially the &#8220;CLASSIC pot-heat [sic]&#8220;), which is the problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Lily</title>
		<link>http://larevblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/the-curious-case-of-steven-gray-part-two/#comment-1829</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lily]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Nov 2010 20:52:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larevblog.wordpress.com/?p=2819#comment-1829</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you&#039;ve ever been on a team--sports or otherwise--you should have some sense of what leadership is and who possesses it. The leader is most simply described as the one the rest of us defer to, especially in a clutch. They respond to our need for them. Matt Bouldin was, and Steven Gray is, the level-headed, cool-under-pressure, solidly reliable players we consistently count on. They&#039;re the guys you want on the court when the score is tied and three seconds remain on the clock. They&#039;re the guys you want on the foul line when it matters most. Their occasional failures do not in the least disqualify them as leaders.

I don&#039;t think Steven was always that guy though. He has natural leadership tendencies, but they emerged with some urging. Part of that urging probably included a request, perhaps a demand, to cease particular habits. (Who among wasn&#039;t more than a little suspicious he was partaking in certain &quot;leisure activities&quot; his sophomore year? His demeanor was CLASSIC pot-heat. Probably what Few meant when he made his &quot;hippie movement&quot; remark.) Making behavioral changes for the good of the order is certainly a leadership trait. And everything we admire about Steven on and off the court (your own Part I of this story) are the very things that will make him an ever more exceptional leader: discipline and practice, self-reflection, becoming who he truly is, developing his full self, having a real sense of priorities, etc. 

Players, even at the college level, do have some obligations to their fans. One of those obligations is to suffer our ignorance and idiocy with grace. &quot;Picking up and leaving behind&quot; certain players really isn&#039;t a function of the fans. We have our favorites and preferences, to be sure, but they aren&#039;t what ultimately carry players to fame or ignominy. Pargo wasn&#039;t eschewed by the NBA, after all, because of a faction of the fan base&#039;s disdain for him.

Defining a team leader doesn&#039;t remove the onus from the rest of the players or the coaches. It&#039;s true that fans, commentators, and bloggers will throw terms around recklessly and assign blame for losses without any real understanding of what they actually mean, but that in and of itself doesn&#039;t negate the concept of leadership. Nor does it disqualify the power of very real intangibles like &quot;heart&quot; and &quot;grit&quot;. When you add those to skill, you get something that looks a lot like leadership. And you get a guy like Steven Gray.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;ve ever been on a team&#8211;sports or otherwise&#8211;you should have some sense of what leadership is and who possesses it. The leader is most simply described as the one the rest of us defer to, especially in a clutch. They respond to our need for them. Matt Bouldin was, and Steven Gray is, the level-headed, cool-under-pressure, solidly reliable players we consistently count on. They&#8217;re the guys you want on the court when the score is tied and three seconds remain on the clock. They&#8217;re the guys you want on the foul line when it matters most. Their occasional failures do not in the least disqualify them as leaders.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think Steven was always that guy though. He has natural leadership tendencies, but they emerged with some urging. Part of that urging probably included a request, perhaps a demand, to cease particular habits. (Who among wasn&#8217;t more than a little suspicious he was partaking in certain &#8220;leisure activities&#8221; his sophomore year? His demeanor was CLASSIC pot-heat. Probably what Few meant when he made his &#8220;hippie movement&#8221; remark.) Making behavioral changes for the good of the order is certainly a leadership trait. And everything we admire about Steven on and off the court (your own Part I of this story) are the very things that will make him an ever more exceptional leader: discipline and practice, self-reflection, becoming who he truly is, developing his full self, having a real sense of priorities, etc. </p>
<p>Players, even at the college level, do have some obligations to their fans. One of those obligations is to suffer our ignorance and idiocy with grace. &#8220;Picking up and leaving behind&#8221; certain players really isn&#8217;t a function of the fans. We have our favorites and preferences, to be sure, but they aren&#8217;t what ultimately carry players to fame or ignominy. Pargo wasn&#8217;t eschewed by the NBA, after all, because of a faction of the fan base&#8217;s disdain for him.</p>
<p>Defining a team leader doesn&#8217;t remove the onus from the rest of the players or the coaches. It&#8217;s true that fans, commentators, and bloggers will throw terms around recklessly and assign blame for losses without any real understanding of what they actually mean, but that in and of itself doesn&#8217;t negate the concept of leadership. Nor does it disqualify the power of very real intangibles like &#8220;heart&#8221; and &#8220;grit&#8221;. When you add those to skill, you get something that looks a lot like leadership. And you get a guy like Steven Gray.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://larevblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/the-curious-case-of-steven-gray-part-two/#comment-1828</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 22:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larevblog.wordpress.com/?p=2819#comment-1828</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hoft, I dig your point about leadership playing a unique part in basketball, but mine about the subjectiveness of &quot;leadership&quot; remains where I want it.  Maybe it&#039;s the nascent sabermetrician in me, but I don&#039;t think it&#039;s OK to rate an athlete in any sport based on such an intangible (or any intangible, for that matter).  &quot;Leadership&quot; as a wanna-be stat category plays to the lowest common denominator: that sports fans are Disney movie-lovin&#039; rubes (which I suppose they probably are).
As for shanghaiing the SSF argument, I don&#039;t think I did.  As convoluted as the writing there can be, their argument (in the form of a rhetorical question) that SG must lead to get GU at its potential was pretty clear.  (But, yes, I agree that SSF is, at least outside of the comment section, not generally message-boardy.)

And, thanks.  It&#039;s good to be back.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hoft, I dig your point about leadership playing a unique part in basketball, but mine about the subjectiveness of &#8220;leadership&#8221; remains where I want it.  Maybe it&#8217;s the nascent sabermetrician in me, but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s OK to rate an athlete in any sport based on such an intangible (or any intangible, for that matter).  &#8220;Leadership&#8221; as a wanna-be stat category plays to the lowest common denominator: that sports fans are Disney movie-lovin&#8217; rubes (which I suppose they probably are).<br />
As for shanghaiing the SSF argument, I don&#8217;t think I did.  As convoluted as the writing there can be, their argument (in the form of a rhetorical question) that SG must lead to get GU at its potential was pretty clear.  (But, yes, I agree that SSF is, at least outside of the comment section, not generally message-boardy.)</p>
<p>And, thanks.  It&#8217;s good to be back.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://larevblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/the-curious-case-of-steven-gray-part-two/#comment-1827</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Josh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 19:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larevblog.wordpress.com/?p=2819#comment-1827</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Steven Gray is perhaps the most talented all-around player Gonzaga’s ever had.  He’s got an NBA body with (perhaps borderline) NBA quickness and strength.  He can shoot.  He can defend.  He can rebound.  Plus, he does all kinds of cool things off the basketball court that should have you petitioning the university to build a statue of him on campus.  But if you keep judging him by whether or not he’s a “leader,” you’ll never fully appreciate him, no matter what he does.&quot;

Amen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Steven Gray is perhaps the most talented all-around player Gonzaga’s ever had.  He’s got an NBA body with (perhaps borderline) NBA quickness and strength.  He can shoot.  He can defend.  He can rebound.  Plus, he does all kinds of cool things off the basketball court that should have you petitioning the university to build a statue of him on campus.  But if you keep judging him by whether or not he’s a “leader,” you’ll never fully appreciate him, no matter what he does.&#8221;</p>
<p>Amen.</p>
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		<title>By: Hoft</title>
		<link>http://larevblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/the-curious-case-of-steven-gray-part-two/#comment-1826</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hoft]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 17:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larevblog.wordpress.com/?p=2819#comment-1826</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I should&#039;ve proofread before submitting. There are some ugly-ass sentences in there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should&#8217;ve proofread before submitting. There are some ugly-ass sentences in there.</p>
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		<title>By: Hoft</title>
		<link>http://larevblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/the-curious-case-of-steven-gray-part-two/#comment-1825</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hoft]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 17:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larevblog.wordpress.com/?p=2819#comment-1825</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I generally/wholeheartedly agree with the gist of your piece, but I want to offer a few qualifications to it. I am completely on board with your main contention, that 99 times out of 100 all the rhetoric of &quot;intangibles&quot; and &quot;leadership&quot; and &quot;grit&quot; is a manifestation of lazy, poor analysis and outdated thinking; I&#039;ll take Barry Bonds and his &#039;choking in the clutch&#039; over david eckstein&#039;s scrawny little ass any day of the week. And when I see comments like, &quot;Steven Gray didn&#039;t lead the team! he just scored points! [and grabbed rebounds, dished assists, and played good d, but never mind..] David stockton is the only born leader on the zags!!!&quot; it makes me want to claw my eyes out with darning needles. 

That said, I think we should bear in mind that basketball, unlike baseball, isn&#039;t just an aggregate of individual events. Things like communication, cooperation, covering and assisting your teammates do play a significant role team performance and outcomes, and thus I think that we should at least recognize that &quot;intangible&quot; qualities of leadership may in fact play a significant role. A player who was locked in on being excellent in his own game might not make some of the same contributions that a player who was taking an active role in exhorting, focusing, and communicating with his teammates. Is there a middle ground that we can articulate between the empty rhetoric of leadership and the idea that numbers are the only bottom line? 

My second qualification is more tonal, in that it seemed to me that you somewhat shanghaied the SSF article&#039;s contentions in order to prove your point. Obviously, the success of Gonzaga this year will depend on players and coaches nutting up and striving for excellence individually, and won&#039;t just be a function of Steven Gray&#039;s mysterious floor-generalship. That said, I don&#039;t think the analysis in the article was a particularly egregious example of the message-board brain-dead fodder you&#039;re haranguing against, nor is it unreasonable to contend that a player who is as gifted (and, to date, erratic or intermittently tentative) as Steven Gray might need to raise his game a notch, become more assertive, &quot;carry the team&quot; in stretches, etc. 

Very glad to have you back and writing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I generally/wholeheartedly agree with the gist of your piece, but I want to offer a few qualifications to it. I am completely on board with your main contention, that 99 times out of 100 all the rhetoric of &#8220;intangibles&#8221; and &#8220;leadership&#8221; and &#8220;grit&#8221; is a manifestation of lazy, poor analysis and outdated thinking; I&#8217;ll take Barry Bonds and his &#8216;choking in the clutch&#8217; over david eckstein&#8217;s scrawny little ass any day of the week. And when I see comments like, &#8220;Steven Gray didn&#8217;t lead the team! he just scored points! [and grabbed rebounds, dished assists, and played good d, but never mind..] David stockton is the only born leader on the zags!!!&#8221; it makes me want to claw my eyes out with darning needles. </p>
<p>That said, I think we should bear in mind that basketball, unlike baseball, isn&#8217;t just an aggregate of individual events. Things like communication, cooperation, covering and assisting your teammates do play a significant role team performance and outcomes, and thus I think that we should at least recognize that &#8220;intangible&#8221; qualities of leadership may in fact play a significant role. A player who was locked in on being excellent in his own game might not make some of the same contributions that a player who was taking an active role in exhorting, focusing, and communicating with his teammates. Is there a middle ground that we can articulate between the empty rhetoric of leadership and the idea that numbers are the only bottom line? </p>
<p>My second qualification is more tonal, in that it seemed to me that you somewhat shanghaied the SSF article&#8217;s contentions in order to prove your point. Obviously, the success of Gonzaga this year will depend on players and coaches nutting up and striving for excellence individually, and won&#8217;t just be a function of Steven Gray&#8217;s mysterious floor-generalship. That said, I don&#8217;t think the analysis in the article was a particularly egregious example of the message-board brain-dead fodder you&#8217;re haranguing against, nor is it unreasonable to contend that a player who is as gifted (and, to date, erratic or intermittently tentative) as Steven Gray might need to raise his game a notch, become more assertive, &#8220;carry the team&#8221; in stretches, etc. </p>
<p>Very glad to have you back and writing.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://larevblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/the-curious-case-of-steven-gray-part-two/#comment-1824</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:24:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larevblog.wordpress.com/?p=2819#comment-1824</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Agreed.  There&#039;s too much information too easily at hand for us to be so elementary in our thinking.  Plus, evolution should have by now made us smarter, not lazier.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed.  There&#8217;s too much information too easily at hand for us to be so elementary in our thinking.  Plus, evolution should have by now made us smarter, not lazier.</p>
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		<title>By: ray l</title>
		<link>http://larevblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/the-curious-case-of-steven-gray-part-two/#comment-1823</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ray l]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 20:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larevblog.wordpress.com/?p=2819#comment-1823</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[leadership is a term people like to throw around [much like &#039;team chemistry&#039;] when they don&#039;t know what to say.  chemistry, leadership, all those stupid intangibles don&#039;t mean anything.

give me talent and ability and my team will beat your team that has &#039;heart&#039;, &#039;chemistry&#039; and a &#039;senior leader.&#039;  

i love when people say &quot;i would never want barry bonds on my baseball team!  he&#039;s such a bad guy to have in the clubhouse.&quot;  or insert other maligned sports stars here - manny ramirez, michael vick (possibly a whole other story).  talent &gt; leadership/chemistry/intangibles, every day of the week.

it&#039;s just a lazy way for people to think they sound intelligent when talking about sports, nothing more.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>leadership is a term people like to throw around [much like 'team chemistry'] when they don&#8217;t know what to say.  chemistry, leadership, all those stupid intangibles don&#8217;t mean anything.</p>
<p>give me talent and ability and my team will beat your team that has &#8216;heart&#8217;, &#8216;chemistry&#8217; and a &#8216;senior leader.&#8217;  </p>
<p>i love when people say &#8220;i would never want barry bonds on my baseball team!  he&#8217;s such a bad guy to have in the clubhouse.&#8221;  or insert other maligned sports stars here &#8211; manny ramirez, michael vick (possibly a whole other story).  talent &gt; leadership/chemistry/intangibles, every day of the week.</p>
<p>it&#8217;s just a lazy way for people to think they sound intelligent when talking about sports, nothing more.</p>
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